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Cms Vs Gms (Or Put Another Way Established Vs Form Players)


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#1 scot scotland scottish

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:52 AM

I know a fair few other don't share my opinion, but I was very impressed with CMS (Mackail-Smith) at the start of the season and the trip to Liechtenstein and Spain only served to bolster that beleif.

At the time GMS (Gary Mackay-Steven) wasn't getting much of a look in at Dundee Utd.

Fast forward 6 months....
CMS only scored a few with Brighton and has been dropped from their starting eleven on occasions.
GMS looks a stand-out at Dundee Utd.

Surely Levein, must have noticed this, but I'd suspect he's far more likely to pick CMS over GMS as he does seem to favour the 'established' players which presumably helps bring about this 'togetherness' he keeps wittering about.

Personally I think you've got to pick the form players always. But what the above proves is how different players can be performing over a relatively short space of time - and you could in theory have a remarkably different squad 6 months after the last.

So 'established' players (keeping the togetherness) or players in form regardless of who they are?? What do yous think?

And while we're at it, would seem daft not to ask, CMS or GMS

#2 zahana-oni

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

They play in totally different positions. Close thread

#3 SlayerX

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:09 PM

I'm becoming a big fan of GMS, his tricks, flicks, step-overs and quick feet is very reminiscent of.. dare I say... Ronaldo. The way that he tricked and weakest his way past four Hibs players, before being cut down, was very impressive.

It's a shame that injuries blighted his fledgling career at Liverpool, if it didn't then he'd most probably be a first team player at Anfield.

I think it's safe to say that his career is back on track.

I'd love you to see GMS and Russell in the next Scotland squad.
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#4 thewolf_1980

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:12 PM

I'd love you to see GMS and Russell in the next Scotland squad.


I would also be very keen to see that because I've been very impressed with both players of late.

Cue the usual suspects coming onto this thread now saying, "there's no chance Avril will pick them because they're too Scottish"...
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

#5 ProudScot

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

I would also be very keen to see that because I've been very impressed with both players of late. Cue the usual suspects coming onto this thread now saying, "there's no chance Avril will pick them because they're too Scottish"...


They're more likely to stay with the strong 21's group arn't they? Although I fully agree that they both should get a squad place, especially Russell.

I think striker, more than any other position, should be picked on form. Especially now that we have more good players who could do a job than we have done for a long time - It should mean that no-one can rest on their laurels and be guaranteed a place in the side. Unfortunately under CL it doesn't really seem to work that way though

But to re-iterate I fully agree about these two and your initial post :ok:

#6 SlayerX

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

I would also be very keen to see that because I've been very impressed with both players of late.

Cue the usual suspects coming onto this thread now saying, "there's no chance Avril will pick them because they're too Scottish"...


Or they'll say that their names are too Scottish, or their accents. The usual suspects are not afraid to mix it up a little.

Tom Cairney has also got a chance of stepping up, he's a quality midfielder.


I came, I saw, I conquered. ~ Julius Caesar

#7 southside_wolf

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:49 PM

Brings to mind a wider issue - obviously Levein favours stability and consistency of personnel, but just because CMS happened to be having his purple patch when Levein was first assembling his squad, is his continued inclusion really justified? So the first guys in benefit from their timing - they get the shirt and it's nigh on impossible for them to lose it or have it taken from them by even consistent high performers (I guess the most notable seems to be Ross McCormack, but others come to mind such as Paul Dixon - even more baffling since he almost got his debut in Levein's first match, but for a bout of managerial forgetfulness). I'm certainly not in favour of fast-tracking every Tom, Dick and Harry who plays well for half a dozen games into the team, but why is CMS now considered an established squad member? When do others get the chance to show that they'd merit a call up just as much, if not more? It's not just an anti-English thing either, I'd point out guys like Goodwillie, Robson or Steven Whittaker and ask why do they deserve to stay? Is it really just because they're already there?

The frustrating thing for the keep Scotland Scottish crowd is that in his hunt for players he seems to have broadly dismissed the known quantities (Scottish, or SPL based players) and is seeking to unearth some hidden gems, with the lower leagues of England and the just-eligibles the most obvious market for that. From his point of view, where he'll live or die on the basis of results, his logic is difficult to fault - find better players within the rules wherever they are - but many of us aren't convinced they are better, or feel that the eligibility rules don't really reflect the spirit of how such things should be done.

#8 southside_wolf

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:52 PM

To add, briefly, the club model Levein is aspiring to is great in terms of building camaraderie and familiarity, but there are opportunities in International football to bring in guys from elsewhere that aren't in "the club" per se, but that on the basis of form could contribute a great deal.

Edited by southside_wolf, 27 March 2012 - 12:52 PM.


#9 ParisInAKilt

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:56 PM

I agree that there is several players in and around the Scotland squad who don't deserve to be there on current form, it's not just an eligibility issue either. Seems for some players they will be included regardless.

Anyway on a more positive note GMS looks a talented player and hopefully he continues to develop and becomes an important player for us next campaign and beyond
Pick it out Landreau

#10 Bzzzz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:05 PM

Very good young prospects, should definitely get the call.
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#11 WillfaeSwindon

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

To be honest, I think you need to keep a core section of the squad the same, but you should be able to swap in and out, a handful of players, due to form. There should be no way a striker with only two goals to his name all season, should be in ahead of another who has ten times as many.

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#12 McManus4

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:38 PM

If Levein is going to persist with this 4-2-3-1 (realistically it's a 4-5-1) then Mackay-Steven on the left will be an excellent option to have.

#13 McManus4

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:40 PM

Brings to mind a wider issue - obviously Levein favours stability and consistency of personnel, but just because CMS happened to be having his purple patch when Levein was first assembling his squad, is his continued inclusion really justified? So the first guys in benefit from their timing - they get the shirt and it's nigh on impossible for them to lose it or have it taken from them by even consistent high performers (I guess the most notable seems to be Ross McCormack, but others come to mind such as Paul Dixon - even more baffling since he almost got his debut in Levein's first match, but for a bout of managerial forgetfulness). I'm certainly not in favour of fast-tracking every Tom, Dick and Harry who plays well for half a dozen games into the team, but why is CMS now considered an established squad member? When do others get the chance to show that they'd merit a call up just as much, if not more? It's not just an anti-English thing either, I'd point out guys like Goodwillie, Robson or Steven Whittaker and ask why do they deserve to stay? Is it really just because they're already there?

The frustrating thing for the keep Scotland Scottish crowd is that in his hunt for players he seems to have broadly dismissed the known quantities (Scottish, or SPL based players) and is seeking to unearth some hidden gems, with the lower leagues of England and the just-eligibles the most obvious market for that. From his point of view, where he'll live or die on the basis of results, his logic is difficult to fault - find better players within the rules wherever they are - but many of us aren't convinced they are better, or feel that the eligibility rules don't really reflect the spirit of how such things should be done.

I know he's approaching his mid-thirties but Robson has had a very good season at 'Boro and has never let us down when called up.

#14 ProudScot

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:49 PM

To be honest, I think you need to keep a core section of the squad the same, but you should be able to swap in and out, a handful of players, due to form. There should be no way a striker with only two goals to his name all season, should be in ahead of another who has ten times as many.


Who's the striker with only 2 goals this season that's in our squad?

#15 WillfaeSwindon

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:52 PM

Who's the striker with only 2 goals this season that's in our squad?

oh ok, two goals in five months! :rolleyes:

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